Yes it's true. These men have no dicks.

"willkinton247" (willkinton247) 02/09/2016 at 07:59 • Filed to: None

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According to !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , the EPA has snuck a new tidbit that would essentially make it illegal to change street cars into racecars into a non-related proposed regulation entitled “Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Fuel Efficiency Standards for Medium- and Heavy-Duty Engines and Vehicles—Phase 2.”

This is the part that was snuck in:

“Certified motor vehicles and motor vehicle engines and their emission control devices must remain in their certified configuration even if they are used solely for competition or if they become nonroad vehicles or engines”. 80 Fed. Reg. 40138, 40565 (July 13, 2015).“

Human Sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass Hysteria!

But really, what does the EPA really have to gain from this? How much pollution could possibly be created from a race car?

If this is true, this would be a huge problem for us car enthusiasts.

Edit: changed the head picture. I realized it looked like I was making a cheap joke about Miatas.

MuchWagon > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 08:08

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This should be embraced. It will spur innovation in power friendly emissions controls.

Also, nonroad vehicles likely includes construction vehicles, which have been a target of regulation and a recipient of subsidies recently. I don’t have figures but construction vehicles are significant polluters, and they don’t have to be.

willkinton247 > MuchWagon 02/09/2016 at 08:12

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The issue is really the conversion of cars, like Miatas, into race cars. Basically, it means that you have to keep the cats on. I just think it’s probably a step too far.

MuchWagon > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 08:17

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Put it into numbers for me, how much power does a miata lose if the cat is left on. I truly have no idea the scale of the difference.

Although I do know that if every car has to do it, the races will still be fair.

Tripper > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 08:18

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willkinton247 > MuchWagon 02/09/2016 at 08:21

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Probably about 5 hp, which is an increase of probably about 5%

RacinBob > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 08:21

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This appears to be the reg comment page http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDeta…

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDeta…

There are a whole bunch of interesting regs coming down the pipeline.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 08:33

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Yeah, if this is true it seems like the real problem would be if it is strictly enforced. Similar to California with the CARB restrictions. Even if you made a modification which actually yielded higher MPGs and polluted less, it would still be illegal. This rule makes sense if said car is daily driven, but why restrict off-road, race-only cars? There will be race cars either way, this rule just makes it more difficult for the low-budget racers to function.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 08:34

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Wait, the ENGINE has to stay in its certified configuration? Does this make turbocharging illegal? Porting? Cold air intakes (Bruh)? Lumpy delicious camshafts?

willkinton247 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 02/09/2016 at 08:35

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I’m not entirely sure, but that could be the case. It’s so vague that it could cover a ton of stuff.

Cligedy > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 08:45

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So modifying/ swapping/ changing the catalytic converters, camshafts, fuel tank and any ecu tuning are prohibited.

-this space for rent- > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 08:47

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Well played headline.

willkinton247 > -this space for rent- 02/09/2016 at 08:53

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Thank you.

jariten1781 > MuchWagon 02/09/2016 at 08:56

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No it won’t. This is older EPA guidance for what constitutes a change to the certified configuration:

Accordingly, any change from the original certified configuration of a vehicle such as adding a system or parts that affect the fuel delivery rate or the combustion process , or the manufacture, sale of, or installation of, aftermarket parts or systems which are not equivalent to the original equipment could be considered violations of section 203(a)(3) of the Act.

Did not apply to non road going vehicles.

It’s not just cats here. They’re talking anything that changes the combustion process. It basically locks you to OEM equivalent equipment across the board. No air flow changes, no spark changes, no ecu mapping, no fuel flow changes, nada. There’s no way to get any additional power (or efficiency for you hypermilers) without affecting the combustion process.

kanadanmajava1 > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 08:58

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The spec Miata class would probably be the least affected racing class if this regulation would be implemented.

vondon302 > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 09:04

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If this passes good bye drag racing. Epa can’t manage the laws they have (flint) and so now they want to pass more. Typical government over reach.

DeLM > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 09:07

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It’s funny, they keep on doing crap like this. but did you know not 1 military vehicle is made with any sort of emissions control? i remember reading an article about how the navy’s ships that are not nuclear put out more pollution in one day than every car in america does in a month or something. but yeah, ban race cars cause they are the devil... politicians are stupid dickbags. Did you guys see they also want to make putting aftermarket rims on cars illegal too. i will try to find both articles.

Mattbob > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 09:20

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I feel like if you are using it exclusively on a racetrack, the EPA can’t really do much...

willkinton247 > Mattbob 02/09/2016 at 09:21

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The EPA is not the DOT. The EPA really has free reign everywhere.

Mattbob > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 09:24

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But if you remove the VIN on your racecar, who’s to say the vehicle was ever certified? It sounds like this doesn’t cover non-certified vehicles.

MuchWagon > jariten1781 02/09/2016 at 09:28

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Ok well that sucks.

StingrayJake > Mattbob 02/09/2016 at 09:35

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I’m sure they’ll find a way to punish you for removing your VIN.

Robert DeMeo > jariten1781 02/09/2016 at 09:44

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Do you think anyone is actually going to follow these regulations? The EPA can only enforce these laws on direct imports, and with difficulty. That’s why Kaizo cars got seized. For example, a Nissan S14 with an SR20 or RB25 swap is a violation of the Clean Air Act, but only California would enforce prohibition of such a modification. So if it’s already difficult to enforce engine swaps, think about how difficult it is to enforce modifications to USDM engines when the states report limited automotive emissions data to the EPA. It’s basically impossible; they can make as many changes to the laws as they want, but Homeland Security is not going to arrive at your house to seize your car just because you installed new cams on it.

nermal > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 09:45

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According to my internet sleuthing, catalytic converters reduce emissions by about 90%. So, if a car with an open exhaust spits out 100 pollutants, one with a catalytic converter spits out only 10.

Let’s say that an average race track has 100 cars running each weekend day (mildly educated guess based on my trackday experiences). Driving flat-out on a track uses about twice as much fuel as driving on the street (again, mildly educated guess). So, those 100 cars, each spitting out 20x the pollutants of a street driven car, work out to the equivalent of 2,000 cars driving the same distance on the road, with proper pollution controls in place.

I can see their point, although I doubt they will get anywhere soon with it.

Jayhawk Jake > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 09:54

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This sounds like a massive overreaction.

You could still make race cars, they just have to keep their emission controls in place. Is that such a bad thing? It just means builders will have to find ways to get power with a cat.

willkinton247 > Jayhawk Jake 02/09/2016 at 09:58

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I think the issue goes beyond just whether or not they have cats. It sounds like the rule would prohibit any changes to the engine, period.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 10:03

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it sounds like you’ll be able to make changes, just not remove ANY emissions controls.

Which does suck

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 10:05

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Email your senators.

I just emailed mine with the subject line “Get the EPA under control!!!”

chilichez > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 10:06

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Hipster city pussies (a technical defined term) are attacking everywhere. Football is too dangerous. Gender is oppressive. 15% of our military age population can actually pass the fitness/academic/drug restrictions if they even wanted to join up. Beards are grown (literally and figuratively) to feign any level of manhood because those skinny jeans, groupthink and singlespeed bikes aren’t working, huh fellas.

Don’t touch our cars, emo ones. Believe it or not, a society in which we do nothing but play with apps and watch TV is not ideal.

willkinton247 > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 02/09/2016 at 10:06

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“Certified motor vehicles and motor vehicle engines and their emission control devices must remain in their certified configuration even if they are used solely for competition”

I think the statement regarding “remaining in certified configuration” applies to “Certified motor vehicles” “motor vehicle engines” and “emission control devices” separately, and therefore all three must remain in their certified configuration.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 10:08

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I’d say it’s vague enough that I’d argue that one. Law needs to be precise in order to be enforced. I’ll keep the emission controls in there certified configuration

wiffleballtony > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 10:29

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CAR_IS_MI > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 10:40

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Whats funny is that when I built out my old Mustang without cats or mufflers and dyno tuned it, under normal throttle and lower RPMs the NOX and Carbon emissions were lower than the EPA’S “average of all vehicles” becasue the engine was being restricted less and more efficient at those points. Now granted, at WOT and 6k rpm was a different story.

That being said, for the average enthusiast who sees the occasional track day, so what, you can’t legally remove your cat or use EGR block offs. you loose what, 10hp?? Maybe 15...

Where this law is BS. “ even if they are used solely for competition”

So basically every trailer queen drag racer, every Formula Drift car, every SCCA spec racer or pro solo racer, all the enthusiasts whom, up to this point have been able to build a purpose built race car off of a used street legal chassis, rather than go to brand X and pay $xxx,xxx for a custom, limited production number (to meet EPA standards again) ‘race car’, so that they can legally remove the restrictive emissions systems.

I view this in the same light I view gun control laws, instead of cracking down on the “bad guys” (in this case, people running around in daily driven [insert car here] without emissions devices, you want to create a ‘band-aid’ law that will effect everyone, including those who are not “bad guys”.

jariten1781 > Robert DeMeo 02/09/2016 at 11:06

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Just the scale makes me think that they wouldn’t go after individuals, but I can easily see them going after parts suppliers.

Not sure where you got that they only can enforce CAA at import. That’s not true. Today they rely on the states to police after POS but there’s nothing preventing them policing it themselves or asking the DOJ to do so. They have an entire Criminal Enforcement branch which has gone after stations that falsified emissions, folks who illegally claimed credits for alternate fuels, etc. They brag about a 90% conviction rate.

So yeah, I agree that seizing cars is pretty far fetched, but they absolutely could dry up the production and support of aftermarket components if they decide to go after their manufacturers. Adding non-roadgoing vehicles to their purview makes pretty much all non OEM form-fit-function equivalent aftermarket parts manufacture and sales illegal if they’re intended to be attached to previously certified vehicles.

All that said, I actually doubt this ends up landing in the regs. This kind of thing pops up every so often and gets squelched during revisions 99% of the time.

Burn-Spaz1966-Burn > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 02/09/2016 at 12:29

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Hmm In Cali you can swap a newer engine into older car. Because its cleaner. Just need a BAR sticker.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Burn-Spaz1966-Burn 02/09/2016 at 13:19

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Are those BAR stickers easy to obtain?

Burn-Spaz1966-Burn > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 02/09/2016 at 13:26

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$, California wants to make money on anything/ everything. Have to be cleaner engine thou.

I like Raw Fish. My taste buds might be different then yours.

What you consider ,“Easy”, might be different from what I consider easy.

Jayhawk Jake > willkinton247 02/09/2016 at 13:53

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I misread it. It does seem to state that cars and their engines and their emission control devices can’t be change.

I’m 100% ok with the emmissions part, the rest is dumb.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > vondon302 02/10/2016 at 21:41

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I just went to my first drag races last summer, the NHRA Nationals. Good thing I went when I did and smelled all the delicious high-octane fumes because I guess it won’t be the same in the future -_-

vondon302 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 02/11/2016 at 06:26

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Well the pros might be ok but bracket cars and tracks like Milan will be crushed. I’ve calmed down a little since I posted this but it sure dont sound good.

MattKSebV205 > willkinton247 06/08/2016 at 00:19

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The EPA needs to suck it and stop restricting the private sector!